My question involves a consumer law issue in the State of: Maryland
Greetings all, Thanks for looking into my thread. I am currently seeking some legal assistance/knowledge in my situation. I ll start with the facts. I worked with a mechanic for awhile. He did some reliable work for me in the past.
My TOYOTA Camry 1999 (LE, 2.2 5S-FE Engine) with 86935 miles was driving OK. My car did not have any issues such as check engine light etc., before this incident. My car started OK on 11/20/2014. Within few seconds of driving from my driveway RPM started decreasing and lost power. The engine died. I turned ignition engine cranks, but it did not start. I towed the car home. I towed the car to auto service shop next day. My mechanic determined that the timing belt had slipped off the spindle.
He performed the leak down test using Cylinder Leak-Down Tester as shown in http://ift.tt/1NZUuIo.
He removed upper timing cover, timing belt, front passenger wheel and rotated the camshaft manually to do leak down test.
The mechanic performed the lead down test in my presence.
He did leak down test and found leakage in middle 2 cylinders. He mentioned that my engine has bent valves due to timing belt failure. He wanted to replace the motor. My mechanic told me that the reason for leak in two cylinders is piston hit the valve while my belt slipped off the spindle. It caused this damage. As I mentioned earlier, I trusted his recommendation.
He went ahead with engine replacement and my car is having a Reman engine.
Later on, I learned that my car has non-interference engine and it will not cause engine damage, when timing belt fails. I shared my findings. He told me that he made his decision based on 30 years of experience and asked me to trust him.
It took some time to reach out to other reliable mechanics. I did further research on this subject and approached another auto repair shop. They told me that engine replacement is not the right solution. The timing belt service/replacement could have put my car on road. Here are my findings upon further research. It looks like he steer toward expensive engine replacement solution instead of timing belt service.
My Findings:
My car did not make any noise in motor till the timing belt slipped off the spindle event. Once the belt slips, timing was off and the motor will quit. Since my engine is a non-interference motor, it should not suffer damage due to this incident (sources: Auto Repair DB, Automotive Electrical / Engine Performance –Faculty, Toyota Dealer, Toyota Customer Service & ASE Certified Mechanics).
1) From APAteam@gates.com
“Basically a non-interference engine will not have any adverse effects when a timing belt breaks, this means there is clearance between the pistons and valves. On an interference engine the piston and valves will contact if the belt breaks resulting in catastrophic engine failure. Hope this helps.”
2) I find the following definition for free-running engine.(Ref CHILTON's Import Auto Service Manual 2003)
"Engines, chain or belt-driven, can be classified as either free-running or interference, depending on what would happen if the piston-to-valve timing were disrupted. A free-running engine is designed with enough clearance between pistons and valves to allow the crankshaft to rotate (pistons still moving) while the camshaft stays in one position (Several valves fully open). If this condition happen normally, no internal engine damage will result”
3) From Service Training Specialist Denver Region, Toyota Corp
The 5S-FE is a great engine and has proven to be very reliable. As you have noted it is a non-interference engine, so if the timing belt does break pistons and valves won’t come into contact with each other.
4) Toyota Camry 5SFE Engine Timing Belt, Water Pump and Seal Replacement (By hardlymoving - 4 Years Active Duty, US Marine Corps, Motor Transport Mechanic and Maintenance Supervisor. A.A. I believe the 91 - 01 Toyota Camry to be one of the finest 4 door passenger sedans ever made. That's why you still see so many on the road that are over 15 years old. It cannot compete with the more expensive European counterparts with respect to acceleration, handling and creature comforts (except the V6 with a 5 speed manual), but the car will get you from point A to B with comfort,)
The 5SFE is a "non-interference" engine, meaning that if the belt breaks while the car is running, the valves and pistons are unlikely to be damaged.
http://ift.tt/1NZUuIq
5) Here are the Youtube video describes about timing belt failure and Leak Down Test on timing belt failure by stuzman52
Suzuki Forenza with Broken Timing Belt - Part 1 (Timing Cover Removal)
Suzuki Cylinder Leak Down Test - Part 2 (Are Valves Bent?)
Reply stuzman52 (Author of above video)
“I reviewed your timing belt situation and it appears that the mechanic didn't do a correct leak-down test. Since you have a non-interference engine, the timing belt jumping shouldn't have caused any damage to the engine. I know in the threads that cylinders two and three had low compression, but this had to be there before the belt jumped. “
1) 97 Toyota Camry, 4 Cyl. Timing belt broke?
“My son was driving and the car basically ceased, won't start. He talked to someone who said it's probably a broken timing belt, which would cost about $1100 to repair, but that might not even work, and could cost 3k total or 3k more, I don't recall.
Looking online, it appears this may be a non-interference engine, meaning a busted belt shouldn't cause damage. Additionally, it seems $1100 to do the initial repairs is at least twice too much. Educated thoughts are appreciated.
The 4 cylinder engine in your son's Camry is a non-interference engine. That means no damage would have been done if indeed it was the timing belt that broke. The $1100 quote to do the timing belt is excessively high. There are Toyota dealers in my area that send out coupons to do the timing belt on 4 cylinder Toyota engines for $299. The quote your son received might also be to replace the water pump and some additional seals along with the 2 additional accessory belts. These items are under the timing belt (excluding the accessory belts) and are sometimes done in conjunction with a timing belt change as maintenance. It's less labor to do these things at the same time as the timing belt rather than have to go back in at a later time. That said, it's usually around $800 to $900 at a dealer to do all of that.”
Our Concerns:
• The mechanic did not provide the leak down test details, such as, where is it leaking to, and are those two valves closed during the leak test? Not knowing where it's leaking to confuse the next step for everyone
• Everyone wondering, how in the world does that make sense when half the engine could get valves closed for a pass on the leak down test? 1/2 the engine can't be out of time when the other 1/2 is in time. That's physically impossible.
• I learned from above findings my mechanic’s misdiagnoses and steer me for expensive engine replacement instead of timing belt replacement/service. The piston hit the valve while my belt jumped story on non-interference engine is not adding up. It was an unwanted repair that cost my good engine, time and money. The leak down test was conducted botchily to make me believe engine was damaged.
• Even though, I trusted him, he took advantage of my trust on him and ripped me off on this auto repair that caused considerable pain and suffering. I am requesting fair compensation/damages for unwanted repair, pain and suffering.
• I went in with slipped timing belt. The rest of the engine was fine and the timing belt replacement was all that was needed. I find other mechanics is able to do complete timing belt job for $350 -$450 range (labor + parts). This is what I should have paid for in the first place.
With a correct diagnosis, I won't be in this situation and engine replacement was unnecessary. Because a lot of Japanese engines are interference people automatically assume that the 1999 Camry engine is, when that's not the case. My mechanic did not do his due diligence on non-interference engine.
I filed a complaint with Maryland Attorney General’s Consumer Protection (AGCP). They review my complaint and communicated with my mechanic. I agreed for arbitration, but my mechanic declined.
AGCP advised me to file lawsuit. I contacted University of Maryland Consumer Clinic. They are not taking such auto repair cases.
I am finding hard to find a lawyer, who worked with such auto repair lawsuit. I am seeking this forum’s insight on my situation.
Greetings all, Thanks for looking into my thread. I am currently seeking some legal assistance/knowledge in my situation. I ll start with the facts. I worked with a mechanic for awhile. He did some reliable work for me in the past.
My TOYOTA Camry 1999 (LE, 2.2 5S-FE Engine) with 86935 miles was driving OK. My car did not have any issues such as check engine light etc., before this incident. My car started OK on 11/20/2014. Within few seconds of driving from my driveway RPM started decreasing and lost power. The engine died. I turned ignition engine cranks, but it did not start. I towed the car home. I towed the car to auto service shop next day. My mechanic determined that the timing belt had slipped off the spindle.
He performed the leak down test using Cylinder Leak-Down Tester as shown in http://ift.tt/1NZUuIo.
He removed upper timing cover, timing belt, front passenger wheel and rotated the camshaft manually to do leak down test.
The mechanic performed the lead down test in my presence.
He did leak down test and found leakage in middle 2 cylinders. He mentioned that my engine has bent valves due to timing belt failure. He wanted to replace the motor. My mechanic told me that the reason for leak in two cylinders is piston hit the valve while my belt slipped off the spindle. It caused this damage. As I mentioned earlier, I trusted his recommendation.
He went ahead with engine replacement and my car is having a Reman engine.
Later on, I learned that my car has non-interference engine and it will not cause engine damage, when timing belt fails. I shared my findings. He told me that he made his decision based on 30 years of experience and asked me to trust him.
It took some time to reach out to other reliable mechanics. I did further research on this subject and approached another auto repair shop. They told me that engine replacement is not the right solution. The timing belt service/replacement could have put my car on road. Here are my findings upon further research. It looks like he steer toward expensive engine replacement solution instead of timing belt service.
My Findings:
My car did not make any noise in motor till the timing belt slipped off the spindle event. Once the belt slips, timing was off and the motor will quit. Since my engine is a non-interference motor, it should not suffer damage due to this incident (sources: Auto Repair DB, Automotive Electrical / Engine Performance –Faculty, Toyota Dealer, Toyota Customer Service & ASE Certified Mechanics).
1) From APAteam@gates.com
“Basically a non-interference engine will not have any adverse effects when a timing belt breaks, this means there is clearance between the pistons and valves. On an interference engine the piston and valves will contact if the belt breaks resulting in catastrophic engine failure. Hope this helps.”
2) I find the following definition for free-running engine.(Ref CHILTON's Import Auto Service Manual 2003)
"Engines, chain or belt-driven, can be classified as either free-running or interference, depending on what would happen if the piston-to-valve timing were disrupted. A free-running engine is designed with enough clearance between pistons and valves to allow the crankshaft to rotate (pistons still moving) while the camshaft stays in one position (Several valves fully open). If this condition happen normally, no internal engine damage will result”
3) From Service Training Specialist Denver Region, Toyota Corp
The 5S-FE is a great engine and has proven to be very reliable. As you have noted it is a non-interference engine, so if the timing belt does break pistons and valves won’t come into contact with each other.
4) Toyota Camry 5SFE Engine Timing Belt, Water Pump and Seal Replacement (By hardlymoving - 4 Years Active Duty, US Marine Corps, Motor Transport Mechanic and Maintenance Supervisor. A.A. I believe the 91 - 01 Toyota Camry to be one of the finest 4 door passenger sedans ever made. That's why you still see so many on the road that are over 15 years old. It cannot compete with the more expensive European counterparts with respect to acceleration, handling and creature comforts (except the V6 with a 5 speed manual), but the car will get you from point A to B with comfort,)
The 5SFE is a "non-interference" engine, meaning that if the belt breaks while the car is running, the valves and pistons are unlikely to be damaged.
http://ift.tt/1NZUuIq
5) Here are the Youtube video describes about timing belt failure and Leak Down Test on timing belt failure by stuzman52
Suzuki Forenza with Broken Timing Belt - Part 1 (Timing Cover Removal)
Suzuki Cylinder Leak Down Test - Part 2 (Are Valves Bent?)
Reply stuzman52 (Author of above video)
Quote:
“I reviewed your timing belt situation and it appears that the mechanic didn't do a correct leak-down test. Since you have a non-interference engine, the timing belt jumping shouldn't have caused any damage to the engine. I know in the threads that cylinders two and three had low compression, but this had to be there before the belt jumped. “
Quote:
“My son was driving and the car basically ceased, won't start. He talked to someone who said it's probably a broken timing belt, which would cost about $1100 to repair, but that might not even work, and could cost 3k total or 3k more, I don't recall.
Looking online, it appears this may be a non-interference engine, meaning a busted belt shouldn't cause damage. Additionally, it seems $1100 to do the initial repairs is at least twice too much. Educated thoughts are appreciated.
The 4 cylinder engine in your son's Camry is a non-interference engine. That means no damage would have been done if indeed it was the timing belt that broke. The $1100 quote to do the timing belt is excessively high. There are Toyota dealers in my area that send out coupons to do the timing belt on 4 cylinder Toyota engines for $299. The quote your son received might also be to replace the water pump and some additional seals along with the 2 additional accessory belts. These items are under the timing belt (excluding the accessory belts) and are sometimes done in conjunction with a timing belt change as maintenance. It's less labor to do these things at the same time as the timing belt rather than have to go back in at a later time. That said, it's usually around $800 to $900 at a dealer to do all of that.”
• The mechanic did not provide the leak down test details, such as, where is it leaking to, and are those two valves closed during the leak test? Not knowing where it's leaking to confuse the next step for everyone
• Everyone wondering, how in the world does that make sense when half the engine could get valves closed for a pass on the leak down test? 1/2 the engine can't be out of time when the other 1/2 is in time. That's physically impossible.
• I learned from above findings my mechanic’s misdiagnoses and steer me for expensive engine replacement instead of timing belt replacement/service. The piston hit the valve while my belt jumped story on non-interference engine is not adding up. It was an unwanted repair that cost my good engine, time and money. The leak down test was conducted botchily to make me believe engine was damaged.
• Even though, I trusted him, he took advantage of my trust on him and ripped me off on this auto repair that caused considerable pain and suffering. I am requesting fair compensation/damages for unwanted repair, pain and suffering.
• I went in with slipped timing belt. The rest of the engine was fine and the timing belt replacement was all that was needed. I find other mechanics is able to do complete timing belt job for $350 -$450 range (labor + parts). This is what I should have paid for in the first place.
With a correct diagnosis, I won't be in this situation and engine replacement was unnecessary. Because a lot of Japanese engines are interference people automatically assume that the 1999 Camry engine is, when that's not the case. My mechanic did not do his due diligence on non-interference engine.
I filed a complaint with Maryland Attorney General’s Consumer Protection (AGCP). They review my complaint and communicated with my mechanic. I agreed for arbitration, but my mechanic declined.
AGCP advised me to file lawsuit. I contacted University of Maryland Consumer Clinic. They are not taking such auto repair cases.
I am finding hard to find a lawyer, who worked with such auto repair lawsuit. I am seeking this forum’s insight on my situation.
Service and Repair: How to Go About - Auto Repair Rip-Off
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