My question involves landlord-tenant law in the State of: New York (NOT New York City)
TLDR at the end -
I found a house to rent on Craigslist. We live in a smaller, quieter area, so this is the norm. We saw it, validated the owners were legit, we signed a lease, paid a deposit, pet fee and first months rent. This was in January. We were to move in 2 months later. We loved the place that much and were not in a hurry. We agreed at the time of lease signing (and I have texts etc of this) that we would be allowed to move in earlier than the official lease date, as the date the owners would be out was tentative but was supposed to be the first week of March. We have a provision in the lease that allows for us to move in early if we pay prorated rent.
March rolls around and we start to get messages that the current owners can't move out yet. Fine, we said, and we rescheduled our movers for the given date. We get more messages saying now it was April. We said NO to that, that we had to be out of our current residence because notice was given already and our lease date is the drop dead date. At this point we are still 8 days prior to our official lease start date. We are promised that they will be out of the house regardless on the date of the lease. Day before move in rolls around and we message them about meeting for the keys. We hear back that they can't be out for 3 more days, which puts us 2 days past the move-in date on the lease. We call our current landlord and explain, he says fine to that, luckily. We reschedule the movers again, for a fee, with assurance from the new landlords that we WILL be moving in on X date. I saw this going downhill fast, so I started talking to a reputable lawyer about what my options were if these people kept, well, just not moving out.
The night before we are supposed to move in (the second time) we get a message that a mysterious cash buyer has come in and bought the house, and he wants to charge some ridiculous amount of rent per week. The law in New York states that if a buyer comes in and does't want tenants, they can give us 60 days notice at closing. We didn't want to deal with all of that, so we agreed all around that the lease was to be null and void, and that our money was to be given back promptly. Our current landlord loves us and was relieved we were staying, so not quite sure what he said to the prospective tenant, but I feel kind of horrible about that.
A few days later, the no-longer-my-potential-landlord shows up to my security guard at work, hands him an envelope and leaves. The security guard calls me and says I have a letter. I message the guy and ask why he didn't wait for me at the desk like I asked because I had requested a release from the lease in writing, and he says he was told I did not work there. Red flag number 99. The envelope contained a check for a full refund with several issues -
1. The check was not written from the bank that the deposit was supposed to be entrusted in (national bank)
2. The check was not written from the bank that the deposit was deposited into (local bank)
3. The check was not in the name of the landlords, it was an unknown business
4. My name was spelled wrong
5. The check was out of state
6. There are no branches of this bank in our immediate area, visiting one would mean driving 6 hours or crossing state lines
I immediately called the nearest branch of the bank that was on the check, verified the account was valid, and that funds were available. I drove an hour across state lines to the branch, and the manager immediately (before ever even asking for ID) checked the signature card of the account and previous checks written and advised that they could not honor the check because the signature was forged. I sent a message immediately to the guy and said that the signatures didn't match on the check, that I was at the bank, if he wanted to call the bank manager (gave him the number) and discuss it he could. No call came in to the bank. I left with the check. I was told if I deposited the check in my own account, it was already cancelled and it would not be honored. Bank policy was to not give me anything in writing because they did not actually process the check. I immediately retained that lawyer.
In the meantime, the guy is still the owner of the house, he is attempting to rent it to this day on Craigslist for crazy amounts of money. Several versions of the ad have been up since before we were to move in apparently, and new ones are posted every couple of weeks. Whatever.
Lawyer took over from there. Lawyer demanded the money, guy demanded his check back before he would replace it. Lawyer took copies, and FedEx'd it back signature required as requested. Guy got the check, and said ours was in the mail. No tracking. Never got the check (surprise). Lawyer follows up and gets a response a few weeks later. Guy says he will only return the refundable portion of the deposit - that the pet fee was not refundable. Lawyer says he has to pay the entire amount, if this goes to court we will be adding attorneys fees and filing fees. Lawyer encourages him to do the right thing. Of course that doesn't happen.
We go to small claims arbitration, guy doesn't show. We present our case and win. Yay! Lawyer asks to terminate the relationship because his workload is crazy and it's not his normal arena of law to collect. We both feel that I am more than capable so I allow it. Really nice guy, that lawyer... Plus he did not charge me much and it was a lot of work.
I send a polite, professional demand letter with copies of the judgement to guy. I receive an email from guy to my work email with my HR team CCd that I am harassing and threatening him on company time, that he is requesting a trial de novo because there is a binding arbitration clause in the lease, that he was never notified of the court date, and that we had been informed already that he had a lawyer. I was investigated by HR and put on a final written warning, advised that although it seems without merit, the guy was directed to deliver a check to my work, I am in a high position with the company and it makes them look bad. I ask my ex-lawyer to forward me any and all email communications and written communications with this guy, just in case he by some miracle gets a trial de novo for something stupid. Oh boy, the yarns that were weaved.
In the emails the guy was accusing me of being on video trying to break into his house. He says that we rented the house under false pretenses (whatever that means). He said that the pet fee was non-refundable. He said that the check was declined because I tried to cash a third party check with an out of state ID, and I should have deposited it into my bank account, so not his problem. He said we were threatening him when the lawyer advised what day court was after filing. The list goes on. One thing that is never mentioned - that he was seeking or had retained counsel.
I get another email that says his attorney is Mr. Attorney (generalized for effect) and that he is in the process of filing a trial de novo for the reasons above. I look up the attorney, and it's a bankruptcy attorney. Uh oh. I contact this attorney just to confirm that he is REALLY this guy's attorney. I REALLY hope he isn't trying to file BK. I have not heard anything back from the attorney. I left an email message and a voicemail, as well as a message with his secretary over a 3 week period. No call back. Secretary wouldn't confirm or deny he is a client, but her answer was 'The attorney will call you if there is a relationship between Attorney and Guy'. I haven't gotten a call back, so I assume this is my answer.
So now here we are. I am left to collect, no lawyer will touch this because the guy is crazy and it's not worth their time... But if I contact this guy, he will get me fired. He owes me a large sum of money, considering. He says he has an attorney but we can't confirm that.
TLDR plus questions -
1. Can I be denied a refund of my deposit, rent and pet fee because the lease says pet deposit is not refundable? The landlord never let us move in.
2. Is it considered a scam or some other crime to collect rent and deposits with no intention of turning over the property?
3. If someone claims to have an attorney, but it is probably not really their attorney - can I send a letter demanding payment to the debtor directly, CC said attorney, or is that harassment? If it is not actually their attorney, can I be charged with sharing information about a debt? Can I contact someone directly about a debt if they have told me they have an attorney?
4. Does the FBI care about Craigslist rental scams? The police are arguing about jurisdiction and won't do anything - small town vs. larger town police where events occurred.
5. Can I file a restraining order for being accused of a crime that I did not ever commit? Can I bar this guy from contacting my employer about my collection efforts?
6. What are valid reasons for a trial de novo in New York?
7. If a trial de novo is ordered, can I add to the judgement? Now that I am REALLY irritated with this guy, I am owed days off of work, travel time, additional consultation fees with other lawyers, what I paid the movers, and whatever else he cost me. :wallbang:
TLDR at the end -
I found a house to rent on Craigslist. We live in a smaller, quieter area, so this is the norm. We saw it, validated the owners were legit, we signed a lease, paid a deposit, pet fee and first months rent. This was in January. We were to move in 2 months later. We loved the place that much and were not in a hurry. We agreed at the time of lease signing (and I have texts etc of this) that we would be allowed to move in earlier than the official lease date, as the date the owners would be out was tentative but was supposed to be the first week of March. We have a provision in the lease that allows for us to move in early if we pay prorated rent.
March rolls around and we start to get messages that the current owners can't move out yet. Fine, we said, and we rescheduled our movers for the given date. We get more messages saying now it was April. We said NO to that, that we had to be out of our current residence because notice was given already and our lease date is the drop dead date. At this point we are still 8 days prior to our official lease start date. We are promised that they will be out of the house regardless on the date of the lease. Day before move in rolls around and we message them about meeting for the keys. We hear back that they can't be out for 3 more days, which puts us 2 days past the move-in date on the lease. We call our current landlord and explain, he says fine to that, luckily. We reschedule the movers again, for a fee, with assurance from the new landlords that we WILL be moving in on X date. I saw this going downhill fast, so I started talking to a reputable lawyer about what my options were if these people kept, well, just not moving out.
The night before we are supposed to move in (the second time) we get a message that a mysterious cash buyer has come in and bought the house, and he wants to charge some ridiculous amount of rent per week. The law in New York states that if a buyer comes in and does't want tenants, they can give us 60 days notice at closing. We didn't want to deal with all of that, so we agreed all around that the lease was to be null and void, and that our money was to be given back promptly. Our current landlord loves us and was relieved we were staying, so not quite sure what he said to the prospective tenant, but I feel kind of horrible about that.
A few days later, the no-longer-my-potential-landlord shows up to my security guard at work, hands him an envelope and leaves. The security guard calls me and says I have a letter. I message the guy and ask why he didn't wait for me at the desk like I asked because I had requested a release from the lease in writing, and he says he was told I did not work there. Red flag number 99. The envelope contained a check for a full refund with several issues -
1. The check was not written from the bank that the deposit was supposed to be entrusted in (national bank)
2. The check was not written from the bank that the deposit was deposited into (local bank)
3. The check was not in the name of the landlords, it was an unknown business
4. My name was spelled wrong
5. The check was out of state
6. There are no branches of this bank in our immediate area, visiting one would mean driving 6 hours or crossing state lines
I immediately called the nearest branch of the bank that was on the check, verified the account was valid, and that funds were available. I drove an hour across state lines to the branch, and the manager immediately (before ever even asking for ID) checked the signature card of the account and previous checks written and advised that they could not honor the check because the signature was forged. I sent a message immediately to the guy and said that the signatures didn't match on the check, that I was at the bank, if he wanted to call the bank manager (gave him the number) and discuss it he could. No call came in to the bank. I left with the check. I was told if I deposited the check in my own account, it was already cancelled and it would not be honored. Bank policy was to not give me anything in writing because they did not actually process the check. I immediately retained that lawyer.
In the meantime, the guy is still the owner of the house, he is attempting to rent it to this day on Craigslist for crazy amounts of money. Several versions of the ad have been up since before we were to move in apparently, and new ones are posted every couple of weeks. Whatever.
Lawyer took over from there. Lawyer demanded the money, guy demanded his check back before he would replace it. Lawyer took copies, and FedEx'd it back signature required as requested. Guy got the check, and said ours was in the mail. No tracking. Never got the check (surprise). Lawyer follows up and gets a response a few weeks later. Guy says he will only return the refundable portion of the deposit - that the pet fee was not refundable. Lawyer says he has to pay the entire amount, if this goes to court we will be adding attorneys fees and filing fees. Lawyer encourages him to do the right thing. Of course that doesn't happen.
We go to small claims arbitration, guy doesn't show. We present our case and win. Yay! Lawyer asks to terminate the relationship because his workload is crazy and it's not his normal arena of law to collect. We both feel that I am more than capable so I allow it. Really nice guy, that lawyer... Plus he did not charge me much and it was a lot of work.
I send a polite, professional demand letter with copies of the judgement to guy. I receive an email from guy to my work email with my HR team CCd that I am harassing and threatening him on company time, that he is requesting a trial de novo because there is a binding arbitration clause in the lease, that he was never notified of the court date, and that we had been informed already that he had a lawyer. I was investigated by HR and put on a final written warning, advised that although it seems without merit, the guy was directed to deliver a check to my work, I am in a high position with the company and it makes them look bad. I ask my ex-lawyer to forward me any and all email communications and written communications with this guy, just in case he by some miracle gets a trial de novo for something stupid. Oh boy, the yarns that were weaved.
In the emails the guy was accusing me of being on video trying to break into his house. He says that we rented the house under false pretenses (whatever that means). He said that the pet fee was non-refundable. He said that the check was declined because I tried to cash a third party check with an out of state ID, and I should have deposited it into my bank account, so not his problem. He said we were threatening him when the lawyer advised what day court was after filing. The list goes on. One thing that is never mentioned - that he was seeking or had retained counsel.
I get another email that says his attorney is Mr. Attorney (generalized for effect) and that he is in the process of filing a trial de novo for the reasons above. I look up the attorney, and it's a bankruptcy attorney. Uh oh. I contact this attorney just to confirm that he is REALLY this guy's attorney. I REALLY hope he isn't trying to file BK. I have not heard anything back from the attorney. I left an email message and a voicemail, as well as a message with his secretary over a 3 week period. No call back. Secretary wouldn't confirm or deny he is a client, but her answer was 'The attorney will call you if there is a relationship between Attorney and Guy'. I haven't gotten a call back, so I assume this is my answer.
So now here we are. I am left to collect, no lawyer will touch this because the guy is crazy and it's not worth their time... But if I contact this guy, he will get me fired. He owes me a large sum of money, considering. He says he has an attorney but we can't confirm that.
TLDR plus questions -
1. Can I be denied a refund of my deposit, rent and pet fee because the lease says pet deposit is not refundable? The landlord never let us move in.
2. Is it considered a scam or some other crime to collect rent and deposits with no intention of turning over the property?
3. If someone claims to have an attorney, but it is probably not really their attorney - can I send a letter demanding payment to the debtor directly, CC said attorney, or is that harassment? If it is not actually their attorney, can I be charged with sharing information about a debt? Can I contact someone directly about a debt if they have told me they have an attorney?
4. Does the FBI care about Craigslist rental scams? The police are arguing about jurisdiction and won't do anything - small town vs. larger town police where events occurred.
5. Can I file a restraining order for being accused of a crime that I did not ever commit? Can I bar this guy from contacting my employer about my collection efforts?
6. What are valid reasons for a trial de novo in New York?
7. If a trial de novo is ordered, can I add to the judgement? Now that I am REALLY irritated with this guy, I am owed days off of work, travel time, additional consultation fees with other lawyers, what I paid the movers, and whatever else he cost me. :wallbang:
Denial of Access: How Do I Get My Deposit Back Collection Efforts Backfiring
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